Spotlight on Dr. Lisa Starr

Vanessa: 00:00

Hello, and welcome to ChangEd, a podcast that lifts the curtain on educational change and brings you into the room with the people doing it. My name is Vanessa, and I'm your host. Instead of our regular episode format, we're going to do what we're calling a spotlight series on each of our team members, so you can get to know us a little better. Everyone was asked the same five questions. Why are you interested in school change? What brought you to this project? What do you bring to this project? What excites you most about NEXTschool? And, beyond NEXTschool, what other hats do you wear? In this spotlight episode, you'll hear from Dr. Lisa Starr.

Lisa: 00:39

I've been involved in education since I was seven, is the story I often tell, and it all stems back from a core memory that I have of my grandmother. I remember being seven years old, my grandmother was older when she had my father, I never knew her during her working life. She was just someone that came to visit us. We were sitting in the living room and we were watching Sesame Street and there was a little clip on French, they used to do that. And she started saying something and I just looked at her and thought, what are you doing? Like, why are you speaking to me like that? And then through the course of this conversation with my very childlike brain, she told me that she was a teacher. And that just blew my mind in that moment that my grandmother, the person that I knew as my grandmother, had been a teacher like the teachers in my school. And it was such a profound moment, and I was so shocked that that was even a possibility. And I, you know, when you're seven, you're not really thinking about your career choices, but it was just this moment of just a reality check. And I don't know why it stands out to me so profoundly, um, and why it clicked with me.

Lisa: 01:45

So that's, that's often what I tell people about wanting to be a teacher, though it's not entirely true because at various points, growing up being a teacher was just a default. Because it seemed easy and it seemed like, well, I could do that. And as a young person, I was very intimidated by failure. And being intimidated by failure, you're going to default to whatever you think is the easiest. And so, becoming a teacher, I was an athletic person. Being a phys ed teacher seemed like, okay, yeah, I can do that and be decent at it. So, you know, it's equal measure, this kind of catalytic moment, and then this idea that I've kind of stumbled into it because I didn't have the courage to choose something else. Yet it all kind of worked out in its own way.

Lisa: 02:28

What interests me in school change is the growth and the potential in the opportunity to think about how we can do things differently. I have not lived in the same place since I was a young person. So I grew up in the prairies, I grew up in Moose Jaw. I spent my whole, basically from 3 to 18. Then went as far as Regina, which is only 45 minutes away for my undergrad. But something clicked during that time where the idea of change, I think there was almost a seed planted. I was never a particularly confident or outgoing individual, and often the change that I engaged in was about moving to different places, but often as a result of someone else moving to that place and me wanting to be near that person. But then as I got older and started my teaching career and going overseas, the change that's involved in those kind of major significant life events became a real profound learning experience for me each time. And I feel like I really benefited from challenging myself in that way, even if I didn't necessarily approach it with intentionality, but it became something that become quite comfortable in. And it's always fascinating to me how change, people engage in that with such reluctance. Because it is such a period of growth and opportunity. And so that to me is the fascinating part, is how do people reconcile all the reasons not to change with sometimes the very small or few ones that yield something incredible.

Lisa: 04:01

I came to the NEXTschool project kind of randomly, actually. I was in my office, I was an assistant graduate program director, so I had an office downstairs and it's a very busy hallway lots of things going back and forth. And Noel Burke had popped by and he was talking to my office neighbour about this new project that he was coming up with and thinking through. And I was listening to him talk because my office door was open and I thought, this is awesome I need to talk to this guy about this. And that's what I did I got up from my desk and I went out and I said look I'm sorry I was eavesdropping on your conversation, but I really want to be involved in this. This sounds amazing. What really sparked me in the moment is this focus on engagement. And you can read a lot of different studies, but for me it all comes back to a moment in a classroom, and if you've been a classroom teacher, most people will recognize this moment, is when they're standing up at the front of the room, which is often the worst place to be, but they're standing up at the front of the room, and they're staring out at a sea of 25 to 35 blank faces. And convincing themselves that their words are sinking into those little brains when in fact they're not. Because they're not engaged. Those are the most agonizing moments as a teacher when you're in a classroom and you're staring out at these kids and there's nothing but blank looks staring back at you. That, to me, is the most profound feedback that we could possibly get. And you see it over and over and over again. And it needs to change.

Lisa: 05:25

My orientation to education is about how can we do what we do to the best of our ability. And when we're not able to do that, that's what intrigues me. I'm really interested in what's possible. And I think that's what I bring to the table. So when we encounter these obstacles or challenges, my first question is, okay, how can we think about this differently, or what else is there? What are we talking about? What aren't we talking about? You know, and asking those questions to get the biggest picture possible of what the situation is, to be able to make that decision. So one of the strengths that I often talk about is this ability to see the bigger picture. And you can't see it because you're listening, but I always tend to, when I say it, open my hands wider. Because it's true, very few people, and it's worse when you're trained as a researcher, especially an academic one, because you're trained to have a very narrow view of a topic but tremendous depth. And that's, that's great. But schools don't function that way. Education doesn't function that way. So, you need at least some people who can dial back and instead of drilling down deep, they can look across the horizon and see where the connections are. And that's an important perspective to add to it.

Lisa: 06:35

You want to kind of really get into the thick of it and, and pull it apart and create some space. But sometimes you have to step back or through or above. You just have to begin to look at things from, not, well, a different perspective doesn't do justice to it, but so often because we privilege writing and the type of work that we do, we also think two dimensionally. So, we create models and graphs and diagrams and things like that, but those still don't capture the intricacies of perspective, because perspective can come from anywhere. Inside, outside, right, left, up, down, all of those things. And so, what I try to do when I ask questions, and it does get misinterpreted at times, it gets interpreted sometimes as being difficult, and that's not it. It's just to, let's pause for a moment and consider what's possible. I get very excited about projects that are involved about change, because I think it's an opportunity for us to really think about what we do. And if we reach the same conclusion at the end and say, we've looked at this, we've thought about it, we've looked at research, and we've decided that actually this is a good thing and we're on the right track. Absolutely, I think that's wonderful. But we've got to do the work and ask the questions in order to justify that.

Lisa: 07:43

The thing about NEXTschool that excites me the most is its possibilities, again. And the benefit that it can have for young people. I think there are so many kids that are bored to tears in school. And that means to me that they are then going to enter into the next phase of their life, whatever that looks like, whether it's the type of civic engagement, the type of, um, cultural engagement, professional engagement, whatever. If the only lesson that you've learned is that this is really boring, then how do you break free of that if it's the only thing you know? And we do a really good job of showcasing that in schools because it's one of the longest sustainable organizational engagements that young people have. And so that sets the tone in a lot of ways. And so if we don't try to think through that in more creative and interesting ways, then it's really tough for us to kind of justify the complaints that we have in society when people don't get involved, when there's a lack of leadership, where there's a lack of engagement in what's going on. You know, you think about school board elections and people talking about the low engagement. Well, why is that? You know, where, where have people had an opportunity to critically engage or creatively engage? And if we don't provide them with that opportunity, how do they learn how to do it?

Lisa: 09:00

Leadership is a big part for me and it's very much, I think, who I consider myself to be. Right now I'm the chair of our department and I'm moving on to be the dean at a different university and... I get very excited about... just the idea of leadership in a very geeky nerdy sort of way because I think it has such possibility for us to create opportunities for people. To explore what they do, how they do it, how they engage all of those things. And it's not to suggest that there's any kind of one way that's, the right way or the wrong way or anything like that because it's so context dependent, but just the opportunity that I could create space for people to be able to do the best work that they can or be the best version of what they want to be. That's what, to me, leadership should be. And it's irrespective of a role, even though I've referred to roles, I see myself as more of a facilitator.

Lisa: 09:52

Going back to what I said earlier about being this fairly unconfident, fairly shy young person who couldn't make decisions. I almost didn't go to university because I was afraid to register. I'm the only person in my family that's ever gone to university, so there was no, no reference point for me. And I just was so intimidated. I just couldn't do it. And I remember it was a weekday in the summer, I didn't have a job, my dad came downstairs and he just kind of flew open the door and said, get up, I'm driving you to Regina, we're registering for classes. And I just said, okay. Because there was nothing else to be said, like I knew it needed to be done, and for some reason I just froze. And so, when I think back to who I was and who I am now. How did I get from that to this? And it's a really, like, to me it's a fascinating question, which is why I like to do more self-study and auto-ethnographic work.

Lisa: 10:45

Because I think that kind of deep reflection and thinking about how we do engage in the world, and being the central figure in all of those engagements, is something that we all would benefit from understanding better. Because when I tell people that story, especially people who know me now, they, they don't connect to it, but I very much connect to it. I still remember that feeling. And I still have windows of that where I avoid tasks that I don't like to do because I don't like the way it makes me feel. And I think everybody does that. I'm not suggesting that I'm unique. But what I've also learned in my professional life is that, I actually am thoughtful and can make decisions and do so in a way that it doesn't necessarily land well with everyone all the time. That's not what I'm suggesting. But I can make the decision and I can live with it, and if it's the wrong one, I'll own it. If it's the right one, I'll own it. And to me, it's the same thing, and we just keep moving forward. Whereas when I was younger, I would just agonize over all of the different possibilities about what could come from this decision. And I stopped doing that kind of in my late 30s, early 40s, and just realizing that you got to give yourself a little bit more credit and you can make those decisions. Being able to show people what's possible is also really important to me, especially for women who often don't feel as though they have the same types of opportunities or the ability to engage in the conversation the same way.

Lisa: 12:09

And at the end of the day, you have to be able to look people in the eye. You have to be able to look yourself in the eye and be confident and comfortable with how you've situated yourself. And that includes making mistakes, it includes making decisions, all of those things. And it doesn't have to be right or wrong, but you have to know that you can do that and you will be fine as a result of it. And that is so critical, because I even, I'm watching my daughter right now trying to make decisions about the next stage of her life. And she just wants so badly to make the perfect decision. And I I remember that feeling and just being so overwhelmed by it. And what I've learned, and it comes from travel and being comfortable in change and all of those things, is that there isn't a perfect decision and you don't need it to be. You just need to make a decision and live with what comes as a result of it and recognize that regardless, there's going to be opportunities that emerge as a result of those decisions. And you just have to be cognizant enough to have your eyes open to see them. That's it. And when you think about it, that's a simple equation, but remarkably difficult for people to do.

Vanessa: 13:16

You've been listening to ChangEd. My name is Vanessa Gold and I'm your host. I'm a PhD candidate and part of a research team at McGill University interested in educational change. Each of us brings diverse experiences and expertise to an ongoing investigation of this topic within a current school change initiative being piloted in Quebec called NEXTschool. You can find more information about this initiative and the work our research team has done on our website at www.nextschoolquebec.com. Part of our goal in producing this podcast is to share what we're doing and involve you, our listeners in the research process, speaking with members of our team, other academics, experts, and practitioners amongst others, each episode explores one of many complex facets of educational change. You can expect topics like how to lead change, getting past inertia, the politics of change, and people's lived experiences of school change as it happens all within, but not exclusive to the NEXTschool context.

Vanessa: 14:22

Spearheading the initiative is Noel Burke. Dr. Lisa Starr is the principal investigator of McGill's NEXTschool Research Team and Dr. Joseph Levitan, Dr. Lynn Butler-Kisber, and Dr. Bronwen Low are co-investigators. Five graduate students round out the research team, including myself, Ellen MacCannell, Aron Rosenberg, Anna Villalta, and Natalie Malka. You'll be hearing from all of us as we explore the tricky and important work of making schools better for everyone. This podcast and our research about NEXTschool is funded by the Social Science and Humanities Research Council. ChangEd is produced by Vanessa Gold. Music is by Neal Read he's at nealread.ca. A transcript of today's podcast, citations and additional information are on our website, www.nextschoolquebec.com. Thanks for tuning in. We're looking forward to engaging with you.